How do you stay on Cloud 9?

Good afternoon, everybody, and a warm welcome to everyone. And I it's absolutely a pleasure to be your host this afternoon. I actually said that up to the, the fifth of February, we can still say happy twenty five. So to all our partners that's on this webinar and the team here, wishing you a very happy twenty five. I say to all that I know that twenty five just sounds so good. I don't know if the math so easy or what it is, but that is great. So welcome to the strategic conversation that we have this afternoon. I will introduce the team as we're moving along, and this is really the informal conversation to just share a bit with you what we are doing. At the end of the day, as partners, what I want to see is that we do well together, that it's easy for us to work together. So this is just an instance of our partnerships. It's just a forty five minute webinar. I have engaged with most of the partners on a one on one basis. We will continue that as we move along. And most important is to see how can we enable our partners as if we use, but, also, how can we together enable our clients? Because at the end of the day, without our clients, we don't have much. So what we're gonna do this afternoon is to really just say how do you how can we say or how can you or our clients stay on cloud nine? A little bit of a tongue in the cheek cloud nine. It could be cloud ninety nine if you want to, but it's really how can we stay in a happy place, in the cloud. What is very important for me is that we don't think that we can just throw something. Our approach here is not to just throw something into the cloud and then hope for the best. And that's why I have the experts around the table this afternoon, And we I'm gonna introduce you to Kevin who as a cloud transformation and manage team as this lead as well as a tech ops, delivery person that understands what's going on here. Is if Kevin can maybe just share with us what is the future of cloud. Is it only cloud? Do we have options? What do you think just to hear your view? And if you, Kevin, can start to maybe just define cloud for us because like IT, it's not it. Cloud is unfortunately not the cloud that we see outside. So if you can define cloud for us and then just solve to go to the next wish duration. So, David? Thanks, Madeliz. And good afternoon and good morning to some of you on the call. So, yes, we wanna say on cloud nine, but I think as mother this says, cloud is a broad term used by many, and there's many terms thrown around, private cloud, public cloud, hybrid cloud, infrastructure, hyperscalers. And, it can get confusing, and sometimes we even get confused ourselves. So, effectively, a cloud is really a collection of servers in a room, and you have direct access to them or you access them via network. But the goals that we strive for in, let's say, accommodating our business applications is really around scalability, cost efficiency, and how we can innovate and be agile on this, cloud environment, all encompassed by a very secure environment in today's environment where cyberattacks are right. So just to as as please bear with me. A lot of you guys will know these terms. I like to categorize cloud into four areas. The first being a SaaS area or really where it's fully managed applications. So I'll refer to SAP a lot because SAP is what we focus to, but something like SAP Rise or SAP Grow, Salesforce, Workday would be seen as a SaaS cloud system. So, typically, this is where the application licensing is provided by the software vendor, but they provide everything in the stack below that, and they support that also. Some of them do not provide support for the application, and customer or the client needs to actually provide that support. But, again, there's two flavors of this cloud. A lot of people refer or SAP refers to it as also two categories as public and private. So in a private type cloud like SAP Rise, you'd have a single database for an application and a public like Grow. You'd have multiple database in one application. So in these environments, typically, the vendor will upgrade systems. And so your application is upgraded. Everybody's upgraded. But maybe that's a nice thing because, you know, your maintenance fees are lower. You don't have to support it. You're consuming the application at the end of the day. In a nutshell, that's basically SaaS cloud. And pros around that scalability, you've got these automatic updates. Cons or disadvantages is really, you organization hasn't got control over their cloud strategy. You're controlled by the vendor strategy and how you go forward. So that, in a nutshell, is, is SaaS. I wanna go too further to that. The next category is also been pulled many things, platform as a service, hyperscalers, public cloud also, not to get mixed up with public cloud in the SaaS environment, is typically where you host all your environments in a hyperscaler, for example, AWS, Azure, Google Cloud platform, as the example. Yeah. You, go to one of these vendors, and they outsource the compute storage, the networking, the entire data center. You have backup power, and you have state of the art security. And all the client has to bring is really their own license. We've seen the term BYOL, bring your own license of the database and the applications. And, this is also quite a good model. Really, the pros you have now, more control of your cloud strategy. You too have quite a bit of scalability in the environment. And, also, you have pretty nice features like elasticity where you can either spin up a server, or you can shop one down for weekend or for a couple of months, and adjust your costs like that. Bonds on a on a platform as a service or hyperscaler is you can tend to overprovision if you had not architected it very well. So it is a complex architecture, especially for environment like SAP. And if this is done incorrectly, you can be in for quite a big bill at the end of the day, but it's all very doable. And our third form of, cloud is, and also gets called many terms. I like to call it managed hosting. This is sometimes also referred as private cloud. So this is where, a private vendor will come and offer you again compute storage, and he will then in turn outsource a data center. But pretty much a state of the art data center, something like Equinix data centers or Teraco, of which sometimes these hyperscalers also use these same data centers also. So, yeah, again, the client will bring their own license. Again, the client will need to support those applications from operating system level, or they get somebody like ourselves to come and support them also. In this managed hosting, and what we do too is also support the infrastructure, security, and the like. Yeah. Your pros are really around customization, and you can actually whatever your cloud strategy is, you could customize this like you want. Security, you can stress on the highest form of security. Obviously, there's minimum standards, and you have flexibility of tool sets also. This, in our view, is the lowest or in our experience, the lowest cloud cost that you could experience. On the disadvantages, you have maybe less scalability, or you do have some, but compared to the hyperscalers, you have less scalability. So, also, a good option. The fourth area that I'd like to put in, a lot of people are gonna say to me that's not cloud, It's really on premises. On premises, you can have a group of servers in a room, and, literally, some people do have a group of servers in a room or in a cupboard. Yep. But this is really where the client fully owns their entire stack, their hardware, everything. Obviously, the licenses, they also need to support it themselves or ring in a third party like EPIUS to support this. And, the pros of yay is that the client has complete control of their, environment or their cloud strategy, and it's very much dependent on the risk appetite as we've seen at clients. It's either very good or it can be a little bit, on the skimpy side, if I can call it that. And, again, that goes a lot around security and possible cyberattacks, which could be devastating to any organization. So, we've seen on the disadvantages of on premise, and then our experiences, this is typically your highest cost of managing a cloud. It is typically in the organization. It's not their core business. It is, high maintenance. You need specialized skill sets, which then which you don't normally have. Guys resign. Everything is CapEx, whereas all the other models are either OpEx or a combination of OpEx and CapEx. So, hopefully, that just gives a little bit of an outline of the different types of cloud or as we see it. And the idea is really to stay on cloud nine or to get there. And, again, I refer back to it as a combination of this. One size doesn't necessarily fit all. We can, we can mix and match between these different types of clouds. That's where the words, like, hybrid cloud can come into. And, we we wanna strive towards staying on cloud nine, meaning scalability, innovation, and cost efficiency are the three important things, but at the same time, in a very secure environment. Brad, did you wanna add something? Nope. Actually, thank you. Covered it well. So I think thanks, Kevin, for defining the cloud for us, and I think, Like in anything in IT, these different reference frameworks, and we call the science thing sometimes different things. What I hear you saying is to be on premise. And the one question that we want to, you know, try to answer or give our view is, is cloud your only future option? Because sometimes if you listen to hyperscalers and to people, it sounds like just quickly move over to the cloud, and it's not always that easy. So, what I hear you saying is that there is still place for on premises. What we also see with many of our customers is that we do have a combination. We do have a public cloud in whatever form. We do have a private cloud in another form. And often, it also depends, on the customer, but there's often different clusters in customers. And some cluster might be a full system that will stay on freight. Another cluster might be that they're moving over to, for example, RISE in whatever form. Might be that they moved to Azure. It might be that they're moving from RISE Azure to RISE, AWS. But the one thing that I hear is we must have a business case to make sure that our client have an ongoing sustainable business that will grow. Because at the end of the day, the IT is there to support wherever we put whatever we need. But if your sales system is a twenty four second system and suddenly that is not your community, you have a problem. So what I think we can do, for the moment is let's just do a bit of a poll. And what I want to ask there is to our partners, on the webinar, as a partner, and there's no correct answer, what are the three items you are discussing frequently with your client? So if we can make the poll, we will see the poll is on your screen now, and I can just read it out a little bit so you can select as we move along. Is there uncertainty around SAP, S4HANA, and RISE migrations? Is that some of the topics you're discussing with your customers? Be mindful that not everybody is an SAP, a partner, a business case including costs and impact of the SaaS, OPEX model, data, minimization, including archiving and historical data, cloud deployments as, Kevin explained, or cloud transition timelines and roadmaps because these many of our, hyperscalers, these certain timelines. At the end of the day, we're gonna hear from Brad now on what is it that our various hyperscalers are sharing with us and the promised return on investment that we hear in the market. But let's just have a look through, and, you can see on the poll, what what what everybody is saying. We'll also share that afterwards. It looks like, the uncertainty around SAP is for HANA and RISE migrations is coming out top. The second one as well, the costs, which we see, quite a lot of people discussing that. And then, cloud from, cloud transition timelines and roadmaps, and there's quite a lot of that in the market. So I think we can close the poll. Thanks, to managing it for us, Amy and Magdalene. So moving over to Brad. My poor Brad is seasoned delivery lead, because he knows exactly what's going on in this industry. And so, nice to have Brad with us here on the call. But if you can share a bit with us, if you can make sense for us on the various hyperscalers and the promise to aura, what is going on in the market, and what are they saying to our partners and our clients? Thanks, Valdez. I think, what we've noticed looking at your various hyperscalers is, I hate to, sort of drop bombs or, you know, state things that might be incendiary, but, ultimately, hyperscalers all offer the same sorts of services. They might have different names. They might have slightly different things where they might be better. You're under this incredibly passionate about AWS on the virus here, and, you know, I think there's certain people that might be winning and losing that for at the moment. But everything is gonna come back in the end. And what we need to encourage our clients, people that we work with to do is to assess all options and to have a look and say, what suits my business the best? Because there's certain artist scatters that might do certain things better. There might be something around regionality that's really, really important. I mean, you might have clients that need their data local as opposed to whether it's in the continent or in a region or something like that. And you need certain clients would require things like availability zones, which are things about data or live. But it's and certain of the hyperscatter would offer something like that. Other hyperscatter would be in the process of building. Like in South Africa, you know, there's the different hyperscatters are in different parts of their kind of, path along what where they are right now in South Africa, and it's something that needs to be evaluated because going and looking at an amazing shopping list of features, we've had instances with Azure where we've said we've gone and bought a feature list and we've spoken to a customer. This has been so amazing. And then when we go and actually speak to Azure, they'll say some of those things aren't available in South Africa yet. And it's, you know, it's on a road map going for so and then you kinda have to go back to a client. So, you know, kinda promise this, and it's to be c or something like that. So be aware of that. But just understand that in terms of ROI, you know, each of these hyperscad is gonna try and keep the best deal, the most discounts, and it's up to you to understand how these discount models work so that you can actually go back to the clients and give them the best deal if they're trusting you to make that decision. So yeah. Right. I think, just while, just hold on to that. But what's important is there is sometimes a bit of a lag, maybe to the South Africa, Southern Africa region, but there's also a different opportunity for us in this region because we're sitting with quite a lot of customers our clients on premise. Some of us call the customers who will return to term clients. They choose continuous clients here. But bottom line is that might be the opportunity for us because we are an international organization. We can take some advice from the rest of our organization that's sitting across the world. So just a bit more on the opportunity that you see on the with the heart escalators, And that one must not take everything so literally what people are saying, but that there are definitely opportunity from a friendly perspective sometimes, and people want to see what are we doing next. So I don't know if you want to react a bit on that. Yep. So, certainly, yep, like, reacting to certain parts of that. It's very important to understand that kind of funding. And, obviously, we've done work all over the world, with, you know, cloud migration and everything like that. So we understand how certain, like, markets work and where that will eventually feed down to South Africa. And, also, if you flip everything around, the South African market can often be a little bit behind in terms of trust in our club. And I'd like to think that we've kind of overcome that hump now. But if you had to go back sort of five years, it was really tough that people said, here's my data. It's been locked to my broom closet for the last twenty years. Now I have to just put it somewhere. I don't know where it is. You know? So that's really, really tricky as well. In terms of just moving on, in terms of ROI with our customers, the one thing that we do need to keep in mind, and it's not a how to improve in our your ROI. So, you know, okay. But when people start looking at the savings that you get from going to a hyperscaler, one thing that some people forget to include is do I? And that can be a very big thing. I mean, we're looking at engagements with RISE, or a migration into a, you know, a has as Kevin said. And, you know, you look at all the savings and you start looking at, okay. Well, I don't have to buy ten every three years, and that's really great and whatever it is. But, also, to get from where you are. I mean, we're industry experts here, but we understand that is quite an expensive thing because it's not also just taking your data and putting in five jobs here to now, which I hate so much. But, also, it's about the functional side, the business side, the testing, the integration, everything like that. And that can be a multi month. It is a multi month exercise. And some people, they were just looking go, I'm gonna save ten percent if I'm seeing a client, but you're gonna spend forty percent to get there. So ultimately, you're looking at, like, amortization as well. So it's not just what can I save now? It's what can I save long term? So and then yeah. To add to that. What we see, guys, is we see that people have moved three years ago from one hyperscaler or from on prem to one hyperscaler. Hyperscaler. Three years later, they're moving again. And then suddenly, it's because it's so caustic or we didn't know that's the what the cost would be. One thing that we do is we do give a view on, that on we give a road map, and we basically say, listen. This is what we see right now in your landscape. Then we look and we say, listen. But in the next two, three years, we see the following and the longer term view. Also, I think, what Brad is saying is in some occasions, it looked very good for people to move to a certain hyperscaler or certain solution. Doesn't matter. It's a hyperscaler or it's a private cloud, and suddenly they feel it's too expensive to start. So what I hear Brad is saying is look at the total cost. Look at the implementation side. Look at whatever you need to look at, and it boils back to make sure your business plan is solid, including whatever cost we might. So Yeah. And, ultimately, just on that point, Manu, is ultimately decisions to go to the cloud or whatever. I mean, if if you had to break down what Kevin said, where you whether you're sitting in a SaaS solution, whether you're sitting in an on premise solution, if you're still logging to SAP, still doing mobile contactions, phone, that doesn't matter. So quite often, these decisions are a business decision because it's around finance and all that sort of stuff. Whereas, us people here sitting in the room are very focused around the technology, and we often get very married to, oh, it's the greatest and it's got off-site backups, some high speed replication, all that kind of stuff. Where if you don't you walk into a room full of functional finance people and you start saying these kind of things, they might just be like, that's fine. I mean, even when handicap and they stick, payroll's been around six thousand times faster. Somebody that's been running payroll that's taken eight year eight hours for the last ten years, and now you say you can run them in four minutes, they're kinda like, very nice, but why? So we have to understand our audience as well as to when we the decisions that we're driving to. So yeah. And something that I want to add, Dandi, we're gonna do a short poll again, and then I want to come back to Brad as a trusted partner and just ask one or two more questions there. But if I can ask the audience and I forgot to say to, the partners, sit back, relax, and enjoy the conversation. So sit back, relax, enjoy the conversation, and think with us because we're gonna have follow ups with you, and we really gonna focus on one or two customers with our partners and clients to say, listen. This is where we act now. Let's move in if you use them to a client phase where of course, customer can be a bit more short shortened. We want to move to the client phase where it's a longer term getting myself out of trouble there with customer and client. So what I want you to think while you sit back and relax, if you're in the area, if you're on the ground, on a runner as you know, and then sometimes you get confused and you don't know where you're at. If you're just this, suddenly say, oh, okay. I actually know where I'm at. At. And that's what I want to recommend with our strategy with migrations is just lift up a little bit, see your current IT landscape, and then me as your partner, we can basically at least just give our opinion on where you're at and where we think your different options are. So that's that part. So if we can look at the poll, I'm not sure if the poll can happen, you can tweak your habit, look at the next poll. It's the last one. So what are the three key challenges with previous driving, cloud, discussion, infrastructure, end of life, poor capacity limits. That's often, software licensing cost and complexity, high internal IT environment, and often the, what do we include, or are we just including a part of cost? And it's actually costing us a lot more what you've mentioned, Kevin. Poor system performance and security concerns also mentioned, and then modernization requirements. So there is your different options. I see the first one. Oh, somebody changed their mind there. That's fine. So software licensing cost, absolutely. Rand dollar, definitely also having an impact, the modernization requirements. And, yes, I think we can close the poll and real again, give me some, background. And so I see companies move from one application venue to the other. Do we understand the true cost, the real cost, or is it just the next CRO, CTO that we're talking to? And what we want to do is equip people to just at least understand where we act and then united the best informed decision at this point. I mean, if at least if we've given it some thought, then they we can do something about it. But back to Brad, as a trusted partner and a cloud platform technology consultant. Any practical advice on optimizing migration strategies including So I've jotted down a few ones here, so I think I only have a few minutes. So I'll go through them pretty quickly because I'd like to get all of them out. It will be in the recording, I guess. But, so the one thing that we were trying to, discuss on the previous point, Mother East was around lifting and shifting, that was part of the sort of previous thing I was gonna talk about, but we'll just put it right at the top of this one. That's a lot of, clients that want to migrate to the cloud, they think, especially from on premise, but it can be from hyperscaler to hyperscaler, is that they think they can just lift and shift. I mean, the hyperscalers do offer certain technologies for sort of but level replication, stuff like that. But certain workloads through SIT are not guaranteed to support that. Or also people get so married to the idea of that kind of just move data around, but they don't understand that they have historical data in their environments. And that moving into a hyperscaler or a different hyperscaler can often cause huge amounts, huge amounts of issues, but also costs that we don't want. Because if I just take how my business has been running in that room closet for the last twenty years and put that into the cloud, I promise you, you're not gonna pay this. Straight off of that, you're not gonna pay this. So the next thing is that you need to understand business requirements. We are very good at what we do, but quite often, we kind of look at a scenario and we go, okay. Cool. We know exactly what's gonna and we'll start to push a project or a conversation in a specific direction, and that will actually get us somewhere that we don't wanna be and that the client doesn't wanna. Go. Joaquin, does that add something? Yes. Yeah. And something we've figured is very important about that strategy and the cost is to understand the business requirements and also what the cloud strategy is. And so it's a bottom up from the cloud type of a technology's, viewpoint and also what the business wants to achieve. That's gotta be done in tandem. It can't be done in two different silos, and this is very important. That's what partners was also we've been working with our customers, and we all have that. I've recently listened to a webinar because it's very interesting for me, and it's basically, what Brad is saying is, what is your prodigy of client? Is it a well, some clients have an ostrich. And what do we do as they strategic? We continue to allow them to do the ostrich strategy. Maybe that's okay. Just. Then we get a different, client that will basically just I'm gonna lift and shift. So I'm just gonna move. What are we doing a strategic part? It's to say, listen, maybe this is not what you need to know. And do you have some money? So if you can just continue from there. Sure. So the next point I made around optimizing strategies is that well, it's a point I'm trying to make is that migration is actually the easiest part. It really is. Every in the last five, many years, sometimes. Some those how are those kids there? Yeah. So True. Yeah. But the easy part most of the time in multi month, multimillion currency, project is the actual migration. When you look at a from a basis perspective, from a technical perspective, when you're clicking those buttons, do the data copies, and to do the exports and imports, that is the results of months and months of planning and understanding of a new environment to make it better. And that's what I say about migration being an easy part. We'd recently did a project with a global, medical company. And the one thing is that we also have to be open to change because we've had specific, you know, methodologies that we've always used and we're constantly adapting them. And we actually arrived at clients and had spent maybe twenty five percent of project doing some things a certain way, and we actually changed how we did it. So you have to be adaptable, but not at the cost of risk of the project. So we wanna try and help clients out. We wanna try and do things. They come to us the last minute, requirement or if we're running parallel over that weekend, can we do something different? And we have to adapt. But sometimes we just have to say, this is the way it's gonna work because we can guarantee a success. So be adaptable, but not at the point that you're gonna risk things. You know? So the responsibility from a partner perspective, trusted adviser, we have a responsibility. And, at a certain point, you know, also to be firm on, we don't think this is the best you can do now, and then probably just to assist. Yeah. And your closing comments on in specific advice? I think the last one that I'll get to, it is whenever I have one of these webinars, it always seems like we I end up talking about trust, and it's exactly what you just said about the client should trust us to take them in the right direction. And one of those things that you I could give an example of was that quite often when you engage with clients and they have this journey because maybe some somebody, another vendor, another software company has chatted in their ear and has put something in front of them. They understand how that's gonna work. And what you have to do is you have to sort of look at that, and you have to advise the client that certain things might not be the best way because we've done so. And one thing that we definitely find of migrations with going to the cloud is that people wanna start cramming as much as they can into such a small time because why should we impact our end users twice or three times by doing a migration and an upgrade and something else? And we have to either step in and say, we're doing this for we don't want to break things by changing too many things at the same time. So most businesses now are all about modernization, and we have to modernize. We have to temper the enthusiasm to say, we'll do this now, then we'll do this, and afterwards, we'll focus on that. Just so that this will give the end user the best experience. Breaking it up, making sure we it's a journey. So what I also hear is it's not just an organoid palmitation. It's a journey, and let's decide what is the different phases in that journey that we will follow this plan. If they've seen a bit about our clients in the last couple of years, the partners that, are on well, I'm sure you know that APUs is in business for forty years. We want to continue to stay in business for many years. We proud of our company and what we are doing. But we also serviced a couple of clients the last couple of years, some of them big bankers, others retailers, other pharmaceutical companies, just to name a few. I want to ask you, hon, as a cloud from a cloud operations perspective, if you can please share with us some of the struggles you experienced with clients on the ground. Sure, Marlise. Yeah. Unfortunately, some of these projects can be rife with challenges. And, like we had said, it's not only just technical challenges, of pressing the button. It is more, to tag on what Brad said earlier, about, do not want to, just merely lift and shift from your current environment to the cloud environment. And what I'm saying that is one of the biggest things we've seen out there is, you have to right size your size for your compute and your storage. It's gonna be different, and you can end up paying, like, triple. We've had a use case where people pay triple what they thought they'd pay just because they got the T shirt sizing and the, compute. And, obviously, you need to revisit things like your design because it's gonna be different in the cloud or on a. Another thing is you need a new backup strategy. So all of that's getting changed. And with that, obviously, your deal strategy is cable check. So there's a lot of new, tools and, design that you need to take into consideration. And then one of the things is that we see have seen is that people don't, use cloud native, services that's available. That makes it so much easier rather than trying to shoehorn an existing solution into a iPush tailor. And, another thing that we, from our experience, had to address a lot of times on these projects are the networking, especially access networking to this new environment. And, luckily, we've got a great networking team on board helping, clients solve those issues, especially latency and emerging issues, for accessing this new environment. And, there are a lot of other technical things that I'm not gonna be able to go into now, but, one of the biggest surprises for me early on when we started looking under newt on the hypostatosis is that we still need to do this. I thought that was one thing that had been the way of the dinosaur with the I just why now? But Exactly. Cats And I mean, you just eat it that out. K. Can you share here? Yeah. And yeah. So, but they'll be leaving an opportunity to any more details, Monlisa, back to you on that before I go forward things again. No. So I think what is, important from of this session, and I see we wanted time. Still want to have a last comment too from the team. But I hope that you see as our partners is that we don't we do want to do what's best for our client. We do want to add more clients that we work together. We can't in every single source, but we can work as a team. And some of our partners are not on the hook today, and we will have individual conversations with them as well as with everybody I'm looking. So I'm looking forward to come back to twenty five. I think it's a great year. There's a lot of things happening in the industry, and it's for us now to really just say that how are we gonna position as for this journey for the next couple of years depending on where the client are, where the hyperscaler are. At the end of the day, we support cloud. Cloud is not gonna go away. For a very long time, I had this free thingy on my background as I'm in the cloud, and the part is not going anywhere. But, I moved on from there. So at that point, I want to ask Hilton as the India of the South Africa and the Middle East region. Just if you can make a closing comment to our partners, Hilton. Thank you, Madalies, and thank you to the thoughts shared by the panel this afternoon. Hopefully, one of the messages you will pick up here is that we don't have a specific agenda as it is. We're not trying to force any client to go to any specific client, cloud. And the invitation, therefore, partner to partner, is to chat to us. We love giving advice about this journey. We've got a lot of examples to refer to, lessons learned, use cases, different clients in different industries. So please reach out to us. Brad touched on the question of trust, you know, putting it out there that we want to give honest advice. As I say, we're not going to force any person to go in a specific direction in this cloud yet. So thank you for your time this afternoon. Thank you, Madaliz, for arranging it. So we've got one question. So Luis Reyes, I think, Johan mentioned, the Cloud Nations in there. And I think, really, you're definitely correct. There are companies that have been building certain sets of software for decades that you can't have a brand new tool that's developed by AWS or Azure that would rival it. The thing is what you what we're trying to suggest is that there are obviously some best and stable kind of piece in software, but people shouldn't always, by default, try and bring software that they've used all the time and try and pro bar it into a cloud solution because often that can be way harder than it is to sort of do a little bit of a reboot or just do a reassessment of what's currently in the market. Oh, Lenny, thanks for that question. Always trusting you to ask us a question. And, lastly, is there any other questions? And, guys, this is a webinar, so it is a bit of a one way conversation. This is one percent of conversations we will have that we had in the last, couple of months, years, moving forward. So this is not ideal for open conversation, but I hope that you could see from the team that we are there, and we will continue the conversation. So thanks to everyone. And as always, I will be in contact and continue the client conversations. Thank you. Thank you.