I'm here today with Sotiris Panagopoulos and Chris Winters, two graduates of the 2014 graduate programme in Manchester, England that Paul Hammersley ran. And 11 years later, they are at the forefront of our transformation business, working in the selective data transition space for greenfield and hybrid migrations to S/4HANA. But I wonder if you can just tell us a bit about what it was like in 2014, starting the template for what is now an international graduate scheme. Yeah, I can go first. Yeah, so I started in 2014. I applied as a junior technical consultant at the time. So, I spent probably the first nine months training up on the software as well as SAP. So both the products and the actual solution that they're running on. I was probably, yeah, I trained for about nine months, and then I started to shadow some of the senior consultants on-site just to gain exposure to see how the software works. And then, probably, I suppose I mostly worked in an HCM capacity, probably for maybe four or five years. And then later, I moved over to the SLO data migrations team. So, you did QM and VM first or DSM as well? I worked mostly with Object Sync, again, in an HCM capacity – Variance Monitor, so we're comparing, for example, payroll results monthly and working on mostly Client Sync refreshes, System Builder. So, we would focus on the refresh of QA environments, sandbox environments. Generally, you're looking at maybe two-day implementations, maybe seven days, up to two weeks. And that's one thing we've noticed now is the complexity of projects is, I'd say that's one of the biggest differences in the role now, in the last maybe ten years, is that the scale of projects is just completely different to… Why do you think that is, actually? I just think the customer requirements now. Obviously, SAP are putting some pressure on customers to migrate to S/4 by 2027. I think nowadays, I know they keep continuing to push that back. So, that's why we're finding ourselves working on those kind of projects. S/4, data migrations… Sotiris is more along the lines of assisted conversions, whereas I'm mostly focused on greenfield S/4 migration, probably the last two years or more, so I would say. When you came, you started in Eccles in Manchester. You weren't in Johannesburg last year? I started in Eccles, and it was probably a room the size of maybe six metres squared, and there was probably six people in there. Yeah. And that would be the entire company probably at the time. Entire company at the time. Exactly. But we loved it. It was, it was where we started, and Paul put a lot of his time into us. And I don't think any of us took any leave as well. We really wanted to squeeze as much out of Paul as we could. And, yeah, he spent a lot of time preparing us for the on-field, the on-site kind of implementation. By what time had you worked with all the components of DSM and QM and VM? Was that relatively quick? I'd say that was one of the most challenging aspects in the beginning is I'd jump from one product to the next, and it would have been nice to maybe focus on maybe, just maybe two, three implementations of the one software and then move on. But in the long run, I was grateful because of the variety offered. So, for example, one customer, you can be working somewhere else in Europe, doing an Object Sync implementation, then I'd be working on Variance Monitor with another customer. So, I think that's one of the things that appealed to me most about the role is the variety. No two projects are the same. Again, different customers based across Europe, different people. You can be working on a CRM system or ECC, S/4. Yeah. I want to ask you, actually, because I think it's not that common for our consultants to know QM and VM and all the aspects of DSM. I'd say you're one of the few that actually does have that broad knowledge. Yeah. So, was that not hard early on? You didn't have an HR background or a… I had no background in anything SAP. I remember the first day I was speaking to Sotiris, and we didn't know what a transport was. Everything I know in SAP is basically due to EPI-USE Labs, to a point. Which, I suppose, in a way helped because they could train me from scratch and I didn't hopefully develop any bad habits. Yeah, so, Object Sync, Client Sync, Query Manager, probably more recently, I'm using that now more so in data migrations, I would say. Actually, did you work in privacy, by the way? On the way through to transformation, I was thinking, did Chris work in privacy as well? I worked, I implemented Data Disclose and Data Redact. You did? Yeah. With Sanctuary Housing. Okay. So I think you might officially have worked across all of the solutions, actually. And is all of that useful in the transformation space? Are you using kind of all of the different solutions learning or not all of it? I definitely think it is, like it’s almost like a jigsaw puzzle. You start off with nothing, and then I think over time, you gradually complete it together. And so I think you pick up something from every project, whether it's a GDPR implementation. Again, it depends on the data set. Maybe you'd be redacting employee data, which may help you with your Object Sync implementations or if you’re looking to copy with Client Sync, using the HCM profile, a particular refresher implementation, so it all – there is generally some kind of overlap. But yeah, every project, I'm sure you pick up something different. And what about you, Sotiris? Did you… you were a statistician, is that right? Yes. So, yeah. My bachelor degree is on statistics, and then I did an MSc in Actuarial Science when I was in Edinburgh in the UK. And I was looking for a job that time, back then in 2014, and I found that ad on LinkedIn. I didn't know the company, EPI-USE Labs, back then, but I did a bit of research. The ad, I did remember it was saying something like, do you like travelling? And I said, why not, yes. And the interview process was quite nice as well. I had a telephone interview first, and then I visited the Manchester, not the office, but a space was rented back then. And I had to move to Manchester. I moved to Manchester, and the first office, like Chris mentioned, it was a very small office in Eccles. It's a bit outside of Manchester. It's forty-five minutes by drive. Now we have moved to another place after that in Media City, next to the BBC offices and now next to Old Trafford. It's a really nice office over there. So, the first day was I felt a bit…, very welcome, but I felt a bit weird as well because the office was very small and there were quite a few people in there. And the training started almost immediately. Everyone was very friendly and they were introducing to us the EPI-USE Labs culture, which was very interesting as well, because you're free basically to allow your personality to adapt on this, which is always great to see. And, yeah, how the whole journey begin, it was something like that. We were trained for nine months, and then we went on site with some more senior and experienced consultants. Everyone was very, very happy to share their knowledge as well. And this is something very interesting for us because we saw quite a lot of different cultures. We did a lot of travelling. We saw a lot of different companies in a very short time, and everyone was very happy to share their knowledge as well with us. We did see how different people work, and we could get from all of them the bits that we liked, and we could adapt and apply them to our work and our personality because everyone is different. Did the nine months really help? Because we're still kind of doing that. We even looked at shortening it to six months maybe, and I always thought that actually the nine months was quite good even if they're champing at the bit to work now on projects, that you might never ever get that kind of time again. Yeah. That is a very interesting question because you really get the theory, but you don't really know what you're doing unless you are assigned to a project and you follow the steps. And this is where you get the real stress and you start understanding what you do. So, that might be a great idea to shorten the training period and be more, be out with the customer a bit earlier. Yeah. Okay. That's interesting. And I've got the feeling you weren't quite like Chris and that you didn't go into QM and VM as deeply, or did you do all the solutions as well? No, I'm completely different, actually. I focused on Data Sync Manager. I have no experience on QM or VM or other products. Now I work in the SLO space. We do the S/4 migration. You don't completely work in the SLO space, right? Unless somebody else has given you other work, in which case we need to definitely get it off your plate. Yeah. So, the last seven years, I think, everything SLO… Is it seven years in transformation? I was wondering if you'd also used QM and VM, but I think not. I'm not sure why exactly. I guess it was just the amount of work coming in versus where you guys were focused, but I think it's led to the reason why, on the greenfields, Chris's skill sets match a bit better. And on the complex SDT and the hybrid scenario, that's where you now focus. So I guess you went through divestments and then into more, selective data transitions. So, any privacy in the middle, or did you go straight from…? I think I did have a few data privacy projects with Data Secure, mainly. So, yeah, in non-production environments, we transform the sensitive data, and we are using the same solution or the same engine behind that in order to do data transformation for projects as well. So, because quite a few companies they want to change the enterprise structures on the new S/4 environments and we're using the data transformation in order to achieve these kind of data transformations on the target, on the new environments they're building. You've been here 11 years. Obviously, you've chosen to stay at this point, from the graduate scheme, so you're also by far the longest serving, or maybe along with Nathan and Perry, perhaps, in the US. They joined the same time as we did. They did join. Actually, the four of you are the original cohort. So what's the reason for staying so long? What do you enjoy the most about the job? Every day is different and that's very important. You learn quite a lot of things daily. The projects and the people are very interesting as well. And you feel kind of important for the company. No matter how senior or junior you are, everybody counts your opinion. It doesn't matter if it is wrong or right. You're allowed to say anything and if the idea is good, it can be moved forward, actually. And that's very important for everyone. Yeah, then a huge amount of trust is placed in the graduates, I would say, as well. You're not left to your own devices. There's plenty of help. And, like I said, it's not just a case of you being left on your own devices. You'll have support from your colleagues. And, yeah, it's continual, so there's always someone there. And everyone's very personable, approachable. You could be speaking to, it's quite a flat organisational structure that, yeah, everyone is very approachable and personable, I would say. And you're both, well, you're in South Africa for the second time, actually, aren't you? Yeah. It's the second. But you're both in Pretoria for the first time? Correct. So how has that been? Sort of meeting colleagues that developed the software that was key to what you've been doing for so long. Even before we go on this, it is a great pleasure for us being here because we work 11, we work… Yeah, what I was saying is it's a great pleasure for us being here because we work 11 years in the company, and we didn't have the chance to be here and see from where all started. Yeah, meeting the developers and all the minds behind the engine is great actually for us because that will build up even more the relationship we have with them. Yeah, it's nice to put, I suppose, a name to people's faces. We've been on, we find ourselves on many calls with the people we're meeting obviously this week and apparently the office's been here 18 years. I know they've moved around a little bit but it's nice to see everyone under the same roof. We've had meetings with Advance, with obviously the QM team, the DSM team, and it was very interesting to hear exactly what the vision is in terms of a product portfolio and what the plans are in the future. So I'm interested to know because we had the US, I'd forgotten, the US graduate scheme at the same time. I think it was just Nathan and Perry. Yeah. And it was you two and Dzi. Is that right? Yeah. … who eventually left us, albeit still in touch with everybody. So that's the five of you who started the graduate scheme really, globally. Now we've got, obviously, the South African graduate schemes that happen as well, primarily for research and development, but there is now talk of whether we'll do graduate schemes in the Americas. Because they haven't really continued it in the same way there yet. And there's never been one, I don't think, in Asia, Australia or New Zealand, in the same way. So, do you think that's a good idea? And what advice would you give, actually, to someone who's coming in as a graduate to Labs? My advice would be first to apply! And I think the opportunity is there, make the most of it. Be curious, I think – ask questions, don't be afraid to reach out. And I think squeeze as much out of the opportunity as possible. We have people who work in EPI-USE Labs who maybe started out, maybe, in project management and moved over to the more technical consultant side of things and vice versa. So it's an incredibly flexible kind of an organisation, so whatever you feel you have a flair for or interest in, the opportunity is there. The opportunities are endless, I would say. Yeah, I would say the same. What really matters is the culture and we're looking for the right people, actually. We're interested in that they fit on these cultures, and obviously the company's culture can fit to them as well. This is very important for everyone. Yeah, like Chris said, that the opportunities are there. If the people are interested in something else, or they want to start something new, and the company finds value on this, they will definitely support you. So, this is another very interesting and important point to say. Okay, I think I've got one more question, which would be what tricks have you come up with to improve how you consult over the years? Or have you got any Easter eggs in the software that you recommend people are aware of? So, what I find interesting, and you're still learning on this, right, is how to talk to different people in order to achieve the results that they want and keep them happy as well. And you might have a scenario, which is the same in different cases, but the people react completely different on the same scenario. Someone might be stressed, another one might be relaxed, and you need to adapt and see how you can face all these different situations in the consulting life. And this is, I mean, it's something you're still learning, and you won't stop, I think, but I find that very interesting all the time – how different people react on the same thing with different ways. So it's been more of the consulting skills than technical tips, actually, that's been the main concern for you in learning in recent years? I think so, yeah. Because on the technical part, you do have all the smart people you can ask for, so, yeah, it wasn't a worry. You have always someone there to support you on the technical things as well. And on the consulting, I would say. Okay. What about you, Chris? Any Easter eggs? What tricks, whether it's in the software or in how you work. How have you changed the way you work over the years? I think every customer is different. You have to understand the business. I think you also have to understand the nature of the project, the scope, because the scope is something that generally unravels as you go along in projects. It's, yeah, it's not always a fixed kind of set of criteria when you're left to deliver. I think, as well, ask questions, be curious. Like Sotiris said, you're constantly learning and sometimes you start processing it. How are we going to deliver this on time with the scope in mind as well? I think. And somehow, usually, you find a way. I suppose, yeah, you need to be flexible, you need to put the time into understand the data model. And, yeah, I think there's no real kind of advice. Every project is different. And I suppose there's a general set of guidelines we can give in terms of the uses of the software, and, yeah, I suppose that's… Has there ever been a… I haven't actually used this, shall I, in case nobody's been able to hear me at all. So, a few of us this week have been talking about how we've had in our careers, like a little bible, like a personal bible, like an Excel sheet or a Word document where we wrote down transactions and reports and maybe tables. Did you ever keep something like that, or did you, how did you go about sort of gathering knowledge? Did you do it just by learning and experience? Or, you know, did you develop different methods of troubleshooting over the years? Or did it, you know, how did things like that change for you? So, I do remember my first, I mean, Notebook was the Word document, trying to keep screenshots. That has been developed over the years. I'm not saying you have to give it to anyone when they ask. Obviously, that's the secret sauce. No, it's not, really. But the other thing now we're doing these days is we're trying to share the knowledge as well. We have plenty of different resources for this, and this is quite key. As the company is growing, it is very important to start to have or to complete all the time and update the procedural documents we have. And this is the main thing. So, we're trying to share the knowledge with other people in the most formal way we can. We do have plenty of ways of doing that. We do have our Client Central. We have other resources for documentation. But whatever we do at the moment, one of our key things is to share with others as well. This is what we're trying to do. I think the company were very patient with us as well. I think they, even now, you're constantly learning and I think it bought us the time to get our heads around the software. And we always had somebody on the end of the phone to ask questions about the projects themselves. Every project is remarkably different and so you get different exposures to different data, different SAP modules, whether it's an FI migration or it's an employee migration, so maybe SuccessFactors, something like that. So, I think, over time, you just start filling in the gaps. Yeah, and like I said, when we started with EPI-USE Labs, we didn't know anything about SAP. So, yeah, I think time and patience definitely. And we've been afforded that, I would say. Okay. Finally, then, you've met Arné and you've learned about System 42 a little bit, hopefully, today. Have you sort of thought of ways to use AI in your job at this point? Or what's your view on how it's going to affect our company or how you might use it? So we're trying to use AI. We don't know how, exactly, that will affect our company as well. But one thing that we always keep in mind is, you know, what information we share with the AI because quite a lot of them might be very sensitive, so… And it's very easy to go with the flow and share more than you should, really. But it is something, it will help us in the near future, actually, to improve our jobs and make the best for our customers as well. I think definitely AI is something that we have to accept, whether we like it or not. It's definitely accelerated, I suppose, my output in certain areas of the role, particularly around ABAP code design. I've invented code, run it as part of go-lives and data migrations in relation to selecting open items across ECP and ECPO. So it's definitely something that – code isn't really my forte, but with the help of AI, it definitely facilitates that and I don't have to contact a colleague. I can spin a bit of code up within maybe a couple of hours, test it to make sure it's working thoroughly. So I think it's something that everyone is utilising it, I would say. Nice. What do you use for that, by the way? Are you using Copilot or …? ChatGPT. ChatGPT. There you go. Cool. Thank you very much. Thanks.